Episode 5 - Leadership and Communication in a time of Crises

Nadia:  Welcome to the fifth edition of Insights which I will be co-hosting with my colleagues Dr Roberta Lepre, together with our guests today, Mr. Sylvain Lamblot and Mr Tiago Aprigio. Thank you for joining us today. 

Roberta and myself are currently assisting a number of companies to transform themselves during this pandemic and even beyond, focusing on corporate governance and sustainability but also on operational transformation with specific reference to employee engagement, clients engagement, as well as business remodelling. So we thought it would be interesting to invite guests from our network, like Tiago and Sylvain have interesting stories to share with us today. So being situated and representative representing different companies in different countries, not so many in Malta in the case of Tiago, they have a subsidiary as well, in Malta. So I believe that different companies, we can share different insights on success stories, perhaps, or even plans that different companies might have in the coming days. So let's start with the introductions. Sylvain, the Director of Business Development and partnerships at telecom Paris, would you like to give a little bit of a background for the audience?

Sylvain:  Sure, so hello, everybody. My name is Sylvain Lamblot and in charge of corporate partnerships and development for French public university called the Telecom Paris. The University has been founded in 1878. So it's an old lady. And we are located in Paris and we are specialized in digital science and technology. We are covering all domains of digital, including, you know, quantum computing, optical communication, data science, artificial intelligence, data security, and also usage, design thinking governance regulation. 

We are owned by the French Ministry of Industry, and also the French Ministry of Education and Research. And our mission is really to our first but we have two main missions. The first mission is really to train the around 1600 students per year to get their master's degree or PhDs. And our second mission is really to develop research and innovation. We have research laboratories, we have incubators, we are part of a huge ecosystem in open innovation. And also we are delivering courses for executives.

Nadia:  I believe you also have incubators outside of Paris Sylvain?

Sylvain:  We have two incubators one is in Sophia Antipolis, close to Nice. And one is in Paris. 

Nadia:  So both of them in front of them in France then.

Roberta:  Excellent. And we also have with us, Mr. Tiago Aprigio was the CEO of All-in Global, correct? Which is I understand primarily, languages solutions company, focusing mostly in the iGaming industry, correct. Maybe us a little bit of an overview of what you do.

Tiago:  Sure. So I'm the CEO at All-in Global, global is not such an old lady. We are almost 12 years old now and we provide language solutions for the banking industry as well as other industries. All-in was born in Malta in 2008. We started as solely as a translation agency. And then we have developed other services but always focusing on the niche market of over gaming and to become specialists in the gaming technology. So that's what sets us apart a little bit from everyone else. We specialize in gaming technology. So this is in brief, who we are and what we do. 

You mentioned that we have a subsidiary in Malta, we do have two different locations, two different offices, one in North of in Portugal. I'm currently working from the Porto office in Portugal, where we have all the operations of the company. And we also have a second which used to be our primary office. Eventually, when we move to Portugal. We started hiring more over here but we have we have two offices now.

Roberta:  Excellent. SO you're a CEO and also in previous edition of Insights we have spoken quite a little bit about the dynamics of between the board of directors and the executive management team. From your own experience? How important is the relationship between the board of directors and the executive management team, and how crucial is it to drive the way forward, when it comes to essentially executing the vision of the company.

Tiago:  It's extremely important the relationship you have with, with the board with the members of the board. Obviously, my experience with All-In not being a massive company, we have one Chairman, that is also the sole shareholder. So it can get a bit trickier because it's not all the numbers, you know what I mean? Like usually, to be a corporation, you get a team of a team of board members that just are there to safeguard the interests of the shareholders, and mostly to drive, profit. And then we have smaller entities like All-In, for example, where we have one sole shareholder, that the company's pretty much a part of him. So he doesn't see it as a number, he sees it as an extension of his own family, almost as a legacy as well. 

I'm the CEO of the company, and I took over in November 2018. Roy, the sole shareholder of the company used to have my role before so my responsibility of taking over his role is the founder of the company is great to have it's a it's a great challenge. But it's also a big responsibility, of course, especially in times of crisis, where you need to take, you know, sometimes tough decisions, or you need to implement some measures. But I'm very happy that he's always backing me up and all the executive team. So it's a very good, very good shareholder that I have relationship with but the relationship is extremely important.

Nadia:  So it's a very hands on relationship Tiago. Because I even with Roberta, we've shared the experience, especially when we're at the board level, and the importance of during crisis boards step in without stepping too much over the executive. So that that's, that's a little bit of an important not a little bit, but an important balance to reach, I believe, both from a corporate governance perspective, but also from an executive perspective.

Tiago:  And the crisis is just not like a bad day at the office, you know, privates can, can make or break companies and careers. If I look at the people, I manage the All-In Global employees, there is a big responsibility of their, families, they depend in their work. So any decision we take will impact their lives. And this is really important for us. And also, the sense of family in this organization is great, because we feel this responsibility, and it feels harder, even like any sort of decision. Because we are all, you know, obviously friends and very closely connected for exactly very close.

Roberta:  Yes. And in fact, again, in previous editions of insights, we have also touched upon the notion of leadership and the fact that this crisis has really brought forward and highlighted what leadership actually entails because it also entails unfortunately, sometimes having to make some uncomfortable decisions. So this idea, this distinction between just being a manager and actually being a leader, and having leadership skills and being able to take the decision. How important do you think this is?

Tiago:  I think it's extremely important. And just going back to the to the previous topic, just quickly, it's also very important that even though our shareholder is the sole shareholder, it's really important to keep the board updated with any sort of measures that you're thinking of taking or that you're actually taking, so that they know, you know why it's taken when and how it's going to be taken. And also, it's important to provide them the feedback on the actual effectiveness of those measures. And so communication is really important.

Roberta:  The idea of transparency as well when it comes to this decision making because you're saying you're going back and explaining the why. Which is also how you can engage people. Because once they understand the motivation, I suppose behind the decision they're more willing to accept it.

Tiago:  Right, exactly. So that's, that's when you show everyone the way. And you inspire trust, which is really important. Like, if you tell everyone like, Listen, guys, you need to cut back on this or on that, because of this. And that, then if they trust you, if you have a proven track of trust, they will just follow you. And if they're going to say, yeah, you know, he says, this is the way we're going to follow because we trust him or her. 

So that's part of leadership as well. I think an important part of leadership is feedback. You have to listen to your team, you have to allow them to have their opinion and take those opinions seriously, as well. And I think that's what makes a good leader and distinguishes a manager solely a manager that manages processes and like almost robotic. Yeah. Then the manager that also leads the way and shows…

Nadia:  Was it challenging Tiago, to manage two different teams at the same time? Perhaps obviously, the Malta context was slightly different than the Portugal context, from a health perspective, even though we're very similar, perhaps not in terms of numbers, but even releasing the measures. But coordinating two teams, two different countries all remote during a crisis?

Tiago:  So let me let me tell you this week, we have two offices in Malta and one in Portugal. We work with over 350 people all over the world. So we didn't only have to manage two locations, we had to manage probably 200. And that was a bit of a challenge. Yes, because some of our providers, especially the beginning, give you an example, we translate a lot to Chinese. And in the beginning, China was obviously the most affected country. So our translators that live in the market that they translate for, that were severely impacted in the beginning. Whereas everywhere else in the world, in the world, we were still adding more normal lives. 

And so from that time onwards, and it kind of, it was kind of an example for us on how to manage this type of relationship. However, our business model fits like a glove in a situation like this, because they're working remotely as part of our business model. And also not only with the, with linguists, translators, advisors, contractors, SEO specialists, but also with our own in house team, we've always provided flexibility, everyone was always allowed to go and work from home for as much time as they desire, we have people that take leave for a week, but spend two or three weeks in a different location, while you know, one week or even two weeks working remotely, just as an example. So we are pretty much used to this sort of environment where people work remotely, we have to manage remote teams, we work day in day out using Skype, for example, zoom meeting, none of this is news for us. 

So yeah, it wasn't that challenging. Because we were used to work like this, but we have to adjust. Exactly, for example, our Chinese translators, because all of a sudden they were just not working, they were working and taking care of their family. So their time was more limited for work. So we had to understand the implications of that. And that was a bit of the different scenario we had to face on a day to day basis.

Roberta:  Sylvain, do you relate they relate to the challenges and experience that Tiago is sharing with us? Or is your experience diff somewhat different?

Nadia:  Especially because you're coming from a public owned companies Sylvain is perhaps some differences here?

Sylvain:  There are some differences but I think it's more or less the same. Leadership communication focus. And I see these prices as in a way it's a it's a fantastic booster. Oh, actually, it's accelerating trends that were already there. So today, working, room working or online courses were already existing in our universities, but it was not really fully adopted by everybody. And now it became like a new standard. 

So, but things were already there. So for me, the crisis has been, in a way, a new opportunity as well. And not only a problem, the first CDO, you know, the Chief Digital Officer, or the chief transformation officer, is a, it's a joke in many companies, so for us, it has been an opportunity as well, for sure. We, it's also a way to challenge the leadership and the management, I still, I believe, I've seen something very interesting about the management in time of crisis, you know, crises bring a very high level of uncertainty and emotions. And it requires a, you know, some fast, fast decision made by the executive teams and for, at least in my school, in my university, the administration people were looking for even more guidance and more top down decision, because which is not the way we are going traditionally, traditionally, we are really looking for flat organization, you know, these small teams are making decision on their own, it was mainly the contrary, people were more secure by thought that guy can step down model. So what Tiago said, I really believe in that you mustn't come with predefined answer,  the leader must really adapt and, and not come with, you know, predefined things he, he has learned either MBA, maybe, yes, we need to adapt, and also open new doors, top down some time is good, and not only bottom up. And here, top down was really a way to secure the rest of the organization.

Nadia:  I can relate to that Sylvain as well. Some companies I was supporting, every day employees were looking towards direction from the CEO or from the board or from anyone above so to speak. But like you're saying when there's uncertainty, uncertainty about their job about their hours, working hours, health, which is also very important, for instance, now we have boards, obviously, that they have to answer to endorse health protocols of people going back to work and how they're going to go back to work, and what's the protocol to be followed. 

So everything shifted, and all the facets of the organization were kind of questions in the way we communicate and the way employees relate to the way employees maybe perhaps even get paid and how they do they, they get paid. So that's leadership, that presence is extremely important. And the candour of any leader, like you mentioned, both Tiago and Sylvain, of being open of being trustworthy, that most probably not everything is going to be okay. And I think the fact that somehow you give them certainty, but on the other hand, being truthful, and you will be able to proceed even further with employees. With the rest of the organization. That's very interesting indeed.

Tiago:  …Crisis management, even if you have a crisis plan crisis plan in place, there's only so much you can predict, like, okay, you're going to predict what maybe there's going to be a regulatory change, and or maybe there's going to be a massive shift in your market? But then how can you predict a pandemic of this scale? And it's like, it's more than predicting the unknown. It's this, this, this just didn't happen for the past 100 years, you know, and when it did, it was a different story. Nowadays, we have a much better health system and so on, were much more evolved technologically. So we can handle things differently. But even if you are, if you have the top crisis plan in the world, I don't think any company could foresee this sort of situation.

Nadia:  Indeed, and the consumer confidence and demand is something which is very highly unpredictable. Because as you mentioned, and it's interesting that it's not just the context, and that's why I think it's it was an excellent idea that myself and Roberta came up with because it's showing these different insights that are not solely applicable to a Maltese context or a Malta context or context in France or context in Portugal, but we're all going through similar experiences, even though we're in different countries, and we have overcoming and assisting companies in different industries. But the issues, the problems or challenges are very, very similar. And yes, predicting consumer demand, I think makes it extremely difficult Tiago and Sylvain, especially when you're in the boardroom predicting those numbers, and making sure that that somehow the numbers tally, that is an extremely challenging tasks. So…

Tiago:  We're going to be seeing some boards appointing some chief crisis officers from now on, completely in charge of prices. If something happens, those are the guys to…

Nadia:  We have a precedent now. So we can actually apply new roles.

Roberta:  I think the joking aside, a common thread that I'm observing is this importance of having the soft skills really to be able to adapt. And I think traditionally, we look at offering, let's say, soft skills training, maybe to the executive team, even maybe the customer facing we're not really traditionally used to doing capacity building in relation to soft skills at the board level, or at the CEO level. I don't know if you agree with me here.

Sylvain:  Yeah, well, it's a it's a very interesting topic, you know, um, my core business is education. And so you have education for young, young students, and also continuous education, which is part of the maybe the main challenge for, for our societies, to, to think in a different manner, we need to be students all our life, including soft skills, for sure. And define what are the key soft skills for the company because it could be it could, it could be different. 

So it's very important for me and for us, for our dedication, for example, in our in our university, we are giving the core skills in mathematics, physics, electronics, computing, but also soft skills, this is required more and more by, by companies, while recruiting our students. They want, you know, engineers were able to communicate, for example. Yeah. And you know, it's not, it's not easy. It's not that easy. You have, you have also the language skills are very important with international team, you have the team building way of thinking, you have also the problem solving mind-set, so they can work on your DNA and your countries, you may, you may have a very different mind-set. 

In France, we tend to have more theoretical approach. In the US, for example, we have more direct approach. So sometimes, so for me, this is core, this is key for sure. And not only for executives, not only for boards, and, but also for all companies, and we need to do that in a continuous way. Yeah.

Tiago:  I completely agree with Sylvain, soft skills are really important from, you know, whatever function you're talking about in a company, if it's a, if it's a board member, they cannot just simply have that mind-set to shareholders profits, they need to have that soft, those soft skills to understand exactly what's going on, and to be maybe even compassionate with everyone in the crisis period. And because it's not only cash, then if you if your employees are not backing you up, it's not going to happen.

Nadia:  You definitely need all the company to support you to be able to execute. And the energy, I feel that the energy now is even more required, you need to motivate even more, the people to work more. And that's not necessarily with a higher wage or higher salary. But there is definitely more work to be done. They need to be engaged, they need to be motivated. So definitely there's a lot of work to be done.

Tiago:  But then you also have to think about who motivates your leaders. And, for example, as a CEO of a company, then you are also faced with a challenge or I'm also in isolation. I'm also with my family at home. I also have limited time, because I share you know my time with my kids and my time with business and then you have your day to day tasks, you have your monthly tasks, you have your reports, you have your meetings, and you have your nappy changing, and you have your kids to feed, and you have your playtime. So all of this is so hard to manage. And then you have to keep the same mind to go back, go back to your commercial call, and then you're going to motivate your commercial team, and you're going to try to stay purpose driven. And then you go to the operations, and you tell them like, “listen guys moving into all this, this and that”. And this is all purpose for next couple of months, we're going to go through this, but who motivates you as a leader, you know, and also, it's a bit of a board mission also, because the board is, you know, who's I mean, the chairman, let's say, is the person that can overrule the CEO decision.

So who motivates your leaders is also something important. And I face this challenge every day with my managers and department managers, they also need to stay motivated and focus on our serve their families now serve a day to day lives. And they're also going through this crisis like everyone else. So when we think about all of this motivation and skills, it needs to be across the board, and we cannot forget that managers are also humans, and we all have…

Nadia:  For sure, but having a team like, like you mentioned, to having your closest team supporting you. And obviously, you cannot do all that yourself. I remember, when, with my role as a CEO, it was extremely difficult than I can relate exactly what we're saying. Because you're really have a 360 degree view. And it's extremely challenging to manage, especially in times of crisis. So having both to support with external there are very good mentors, very good coaches, or coaches, that that really can support individuals or teams, to have this positive mind-set, which is very, very much required. 

Roberta:  In fact, in this regard, Nadia with this issue of the mind-set keeps emerging as well, in all of our different sessions. I wanted to ask if you believe that a positive mind-set can be built? Or do you think it's something that you either have or you don't

Tiago:  I think a positive mind-set, it's almost like a personality trait? I don't. I don't think you can acquire positiveness and be positive all the time. I don't know. It's a good question. 

Nadia:  I'm thinking about the asset which needs to be nurtured for sure. Even as a natural trait. I do agree that it's not something which is, you have to take for granted on a daily basis, that you're going to be positive every day, you're going to be motivated, you're going to go there, motivate the team, execute, and achieve tasks consistent, consistently, and constantly. 

Tiago:  And more importantly, I think it's not just in a time of crisis, that you need to be positive. I mean, if you're managing a team, and you have your modus operandi, the way you do things on a day to day basis, and all of a sudden, enterprises are just super positive person, and you communicate with everyone and you're a different, you know, manager, that also doesn't fit well. Like, I, I don't think I've changed the way I approach my team or processes or anything during this time of crisis. It's just the way I've been doing it for the past two years for All-In as a CEO, and before I was managing the operations, and I was doing the same. And so I don't think this can be changed from you know, one day to the other, and all of a sudden, you're super positive person, whereas before the crisis, you're just, you know, a normal guy. 

So it's something you need to have throughout your course and not just change with the flow. 

Nadia:  Sylvain, what are your views on this one?

Sylvain:  Well, positive mind-set is a must. But also positive culture. You know, I'm facing every day some students who have 20 years old, if I start to look at the challenges for the next 50 years who are coming, if I start to be negative, then I close, close the school and they will not they will be disparaged. You know, there will be an acceleration of crisis, energy transition, climate change, there will be more and more crises. 

We know that You know, immigration population, we are going to face and I think there's the New World, the new world is going to be more and more uncertain, with more and more different kind of crisis. And the ultimate crisis is the climate change, which is, which is a slow climate crisis, but will are very, very badly effects. 

So to me, it's, it's a positive mind-set in the sense that we need to give to the students to the young generation, we need to be realistic, there will be some challenge that you have a role to play, you have a role to change the rules of the games, you have the room to make a more sustainable and more resilient world, not change the movements. 

Today, all of us, we have a model that has been built, built 20, 30, 40 years ago, that is based on growth, growth, growth, my all the KPI in all the different companies are mainly based on growth. Now we are talking about sustainable growth, but you know, it's not going to be there like that. It's complex, and it’s not easy. So we must be positive, the way we do it in at least in my university is to tell the students, you will have a role to play, you need to be to think outside of the box, you need to reinvent a new world. This is why it's important education and innovation. We are pushing students to innovate, not to be close, really, to innovate, and to think that you have to invent a new world, and this is the way I think we can be positive. Otherwise, you know, we close the door and we stop everything because there will be even bigger challenge coming soon.

Nadia:  It's extremely interesting what Silva mentioned, sorry, Tiago,

Tiago:  Now the positive culture and how to build a positive culture instead of not having positive individuals, like isolated you have a positive culture within the company that then in a time of crisis, will pay off your investment over the years to build that and I think investing in, in, in your people, like, giving them responsibilities, delegated empowerment over the years, that builds positivity, as well during a time of crisis, you also need to be purpose driven and need to communicate that factors in the real estate to see location, location, location, and I hear I think it's communication communication, communication. Everyone is in their shoes and, and, and do and having a common purpose and staying positive that we're going to overcome.

Nadia:  Which brings me to the next topic, which is very similar, I think the importance Sylvain, you touched upon it the importance of to think outside the box, and be agile and finding or, or identifying new business models. And now that we are transitioning into this new system of doing business of making the business of sustainable organizations. So would you perhaps be able to share some success stories that not necessarily, perhaps, were COVID driven, so to speak, but more than anything, they were plans in the pipeline and they exit you've accelerated that plan to launch that plan within your respective companies? And if not success stories, or as what are your plans and accounting? Sir, in the coming weeks, which we're planning to adopt or embark on? You want to start? Okay, I started I can I can? I can.

Tiago:  Okay, so the question was, was primarily for you, but I think that it can adapt to both right now. Okay. So when it comes to All-in, it's not directly related to COVID. But it's the success story, or the path I can share with you is that we have a couple of years ago identified that our brand didn't really transmit what we actually did. So the company was All-In translations. And we went through a rebranding and we are now known as All-In Global for over a year. And why because we provide a little bit more than just translations, content, writing SEO services and so on. We also provide these services. Exactly and subtype and you can do visual telephony interpreting 24/7.

So now we provide a bit more so this plan that we have in place is now paying off, because we are not dependent on one sole niche industry or one vertical of that industry, let's say that we were dependent on, or our niche market was solely sports betting, okay? All sports events have practically being cancelled. So, we will probably be in a very, very complicated situation right now, if all of our eggs were in that basket. So this two year planning or shift has helped us a lot now. Because now we are focusing on more than one industry more and more vertical. And we have seen that paying off, because for example, eSports, as seen very big growth over the past two to three months, because these sports are played, can be played at home, by players remotely online. Sports Betting as took off, like never before, for example, it also took off for us and we've been investing in eSports. For two years, we've been hiring eSports specialists for two years, we've been focusing and building the service for two years, and it's now paying off. And what if we hadn't done anything about it, you know, we wouldn't be ready for the demand. So not necessarily Coronavirus related, but I think if companies really look at their business model and try to, to change it and adapt and not be so, so risky, at least

Nadia:  Over-depending on one source of revenue has always been one of the main risk factors. And I believe that some of the companies at least on supporting at the moment, they are suffering mainly because of that. Now, certain industries, obviously, it's very difficult to because if you were the industry you're operating in, for example, tourism, then you're affected across the board, even if you're trying to be creative, then you would have to diversify in unrelated diversification, for instance, but having different sources of income and different sources of revenue generation is extremely important. I've even in the past, I think I recall situations where there was an over-dependency on one particular client, for instance, and then that contracts has to be terminated or because obviously even contracts nowadays, we used gone whether the contracts for five years and five year contracts or 10 year contracts, and not even 10 days, they're also there are tenders for a shorter periods of time. So having that innovative approach of relooking at your model and making sure that your risks are shared as evenly as possible. And amongst all the different revenues. I think it's a very, very valid point here.

Tiago:  It's also very tough, because then we fear that we might lose the specialization. That's because, for example at all interrelations our motor used to be we speak your gaming language, that doesn't apply nowadays, because we also tap into FinTech and sports and eSports. So it's not like gaming, we have to change it to language sources you can bet on. But then what about the existing market? What's their perception of this, you know, so we have to be very careful with this migration. And, and it could have affected our brand, obviously, we remain specialists. So the output is there, the quality's there, nothing has changed. We just growing in different verticals. And then it also depends on the business stage, because it's very nice to speak about this. But then, if your business is at the stage, where you have just started, it's really hard for you to go through this and try to tap every single industry all the time people. If you reach maturity, then you might have more resources. If you're growing 20, 30% a year, you might have more resources, but if you're in your first year of operations, it might be a bit challenging. 

Nadia:  It has to be planned in the Sylvan. Yes. Sylvain.

Sylvain:  So to answer your questions about lesson learned and success stories, what I see is that the students are more and more challenging about the corporates,, the, enterprise we are bringing to the school. You know, my one of my role is to bring around 50 enterprise in the school to create matching and to propose internships and jobs, and also to educate the students about the different industries and the different jobs. And now the students they want. They are challenging me about bringing different kinds of companies, not only the [unintelligible], the Google Amazon, you know, Facebook and the not only the leaders in digital world, French or American leaders, but also health companies. 

So we are now bringing, they want me to establish a partnership with Sanofi. It's a huge health company, and they want to have a partnership with another school and specialize in agriculture. So you know, interdisciplinary exchange of work on the digital agriculture, or the transformation of the agriculture to make an agriculture even more efficient. And they will for sure, this is a trend that were already existing a few years ago. They want more courses, more education and more partnerships around companies while doing green IT or green by IT. So again, tech, system variability, long term growth, and you know, the carbon challenge is really coming in towards to the digital industry. They want to work or they don't want to work anymore in companies were not taking into account these, these challenges. So this is very interesting for me to against the next generation of trends that were existing their students, they will go more and more working for companies with respect well, including these aspects in their strategies to green IT and green buy it are becoming more and more important for my university.

Nadia:  This is definitely music to your ears, Roberto.

Roberta:  Certainly, in fact, Sylvain I wanted to ask, do you feel that sustainability issues having been looked at as like a fringe issue? Do you feel that they are now shifting into the mainstream? 

Sylvain:  You mean, globally or mind? 

Roberta:  Primarily your experience so your university and your country, your experience in France? Do you see that these issues of social sustainability but also environmental sustainability, do you see them coming more to the fore now I'm becoming more mainstream? 

Sylvain:  Yes, it's definitely there, I can see a shift in two or three years. It's, it's, I can see the students we have a different mind-set than my, at my age. So it's a personal attitude is different. For example, they are not consuming the same as we tend to consume. At the school level, we are now accelerating our low carbon consumption, we have we are really looking at reducing the power consumption for the school or even in the design of the of the school. 

We have also the green, green Monday where we don't serve meat at the container. So there are many aspects that are coming the individual level at the school level, and also the research and innovation level, which is very interesting. Two years ago, there was only paper research paper about optimization about performance in the digital industry, for example, blockchain, you know, how can you make a more efficient blockchain? Now you have some researcher were looking for how can we reduce the perception and make it more sustainable blockchain algorithm? So in every domain, at every level, I can see a shift. It's coming slowly but surely, and also the pressure is there from the students. If you don't do it, the young generation, they will punish you in a way directly or indirectly, which is good. I like it. It's a it's a very, you know, the good thing about working in a university is that you are facing young, young generation.

Nadia:  Transitions events a very positive transition. Yes. Oh, so thank you very much. Thank you, Tiago. Thank you. Sylvain maybe one last remark before we wrap up your views, your closing remark. What do you think what are you positive or negative what are your feedback for the coming months and

Tiago:  Very positive, very positive. We have to remain very positive but not only saying it but also doing it and close firing that to your teams. It can be challenging it will be it is challenging at times. But it will obviously I don't want to I don't want to put the rainbow here and say that we're going to be okay. But it's, it's going to happen, we're going to go through this together. And in a few months we're going to have or maybe more. But this is going to inspire a lot of change. And a lot of companies, some markets are going to be shifting, we're going to be seeing some mergers, acquisitions and so on. But the economy will recover, everyone will, will be fine. And maybe they will have to shift the way they work. Some people, maybe some companies will have to adapt, but everything's going to be okay.

Nadia:  Excellent, Sylvain? 

Sylvain:  Yes. And I'm very positive in every crisis. They are opportunities. And I believe in this crisis, there will be some, some goods coming from this than this crisis. I hope also that the European level, we continue to build a real strategy for being more sustainable, but also more resilient and more independent. From a far country, in east or west. But that's another story. But no, I'm very positive about the future, I believe that there will be some goods coming from the strict prices.

Nadia:  I share with you the same views. Thank you for reconfirming that with every crisis, there is definitely opportunities. And definitely it's an era where we have to adopt for each and every company. And thank you for sharing the respective insights from your own respective companies. Thank you, Tiago. Thank you, Sylvain. Thank you.